01:31:45 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: Is it possible to watch this documentary without a Netflix subscription? Netflix is big tech too! 01:31:55 Mauve: Piracy! :D 01:32:02 Celestial : “Allowing people who share responsibility for our tech dystopia to keep control of the narrative means we never get to the bottom of how and why we got here, and we artificially narrow the possibilities for where we go next.” https://conversationalist.org/2020/03/05/the-prodigal-techbro/ 01:32:05 Pegah & Connor: Netflix’s algorithm recommended us to watch The Social Dilemma, so we did 01:32:05 Rebecca Sentance: yarrrrr 01:32:08 Mauve: I mean.. anything but piracy 01:32:10 Pegah & Connor: :p 01:32:11 Celestial : ^lots of interesting convos around this doc 01:32:15 Steve Ray: How does a decentralized web help address misinformation? While it does help with the adverse effects of recommendations, it still allows extremist memes to spread. How do we balance free speech with the risks of balkanization? 01:32:40 Gilberto David Marinheiro: wonderfull. Necessary for world. 01:32:52 Liza Loop: Some of us aren’t clueless. 01:33:24 Mel: I am 01:33:37 Abhik Chowdhury: Great storytelling, liked it a lot! 01:33:38 light: https://twitter.com/lightcoin/status/1308355109160714240 01:33:42 Mauve: Wooooo, go Mai 01:34:09 murilopolese: :claps: 01:34:17 Innocent: Netflix’s “The Social Dilemma” is not tailored for Africa’s internet reality 01:34:18 Travis FW: Steve, just getting outside our bubbles is the step we need to take. Sure there's always disinformation. But tech makes it like every single person in society is trapped in a cult. 01:34:23 Innocent: https://techcabal.com/2020/09/14/netflix-the-social-dilemma-africa-internet-control/ 01:34:40 Gilberto David Marinheiro: Paradox of algoritms. Create life.. and figther. 01:34:52 William Kronholm: "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them." 01:35:20 Kaliya Identity Woman: There are very real critiques of the movie - https://twitter.com/SarahdawnH/status/1307339901940056065 riends held a backyard watch party of @SocialDilemma_ . I appreciated the explanation of AI & unintended consequences- powerful story! And wish @jefforlowski had more voices from Black/POC experts in film/quotes and didn’t center millionaire white men as the experts/heroes. just started THE SOCIAL DILEMMA and off the bat I’m as annoyed as everyone else than not a single social scientist who studies racism and tech/coding/algorithms. so many women of color scholars are RIGHT THERE but we are listing to all these white tech bros...bah. 01:35:24 Mauve: Get on SSB Cory! 01:35:46 Mark Carranza: ssb? 01:36:12 Innocent: https://scuttlebutt.nz/ 01:36:14 Mauve: Secure Scuttlebutt, a decentralized social platform full of cool folks 01:36:21 Jeremy Dunck: science & technology studies has opinions about Social Dilemma - https://twitter.com/lmesseri/status/1306962471685705730 01:36:26 Mel: +1 to scuttlebutt 01:36:46 Mauve: Hit me up if you want help getting on SSB. 😤 01:36:52 trav: +1 ssb ;) 01:37:03 duke crawford: ssbftw 01:37:06 Mauve: Whoops, Zoom doesn't like emoji 01:37:13 Fabien Benetou: more critics on the Social Dilemma https://librarianshipwreck.wordpress.com/2020/09/17/flamethrowers-and-fire-extinguishers-a-review-of-the-social-dilemma/ 01:37:42 Fabien Benetou: even IMO it's better than nothing for people who are totally naive about surveillance capitalism it is indeed far from perfect. 01:38:18 Rebecca Sentance: We already have a decentralised Twitter... it's called Mastodon 01:38:24 Kent Bye: Also worth checking out Rushkoff's take on The Social Dilemma, which ignores the history and context of this issue from media theorists like himself and others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT8HI_Tru_s 01:39:09 Fabien Benetou: Hi Kent ;) thanks for that link didn't watch that yet but curious to hear about his perspective 01:39:22 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: Yes, I'm on Mastodon, but Twitter has a lot more users so it would still be exciting to see Twitter part of a decentralised protocol system. 01:39:27 jin: hi folks o/ 01:39:30 Margaret Warren: Thanks Kent Bye, that looks very interesting 01:39:34 Mauve: Jin! <3 01:39:53 Kaliya Identity Woman: Yes the Social Dilemma is situated A-historically - one of the many challenges of the culture/ideology of silicon valley that we work to address at http://humanfirst.tech/silicon-valley-ideology-utopian-dystopia/ 01:39:57 Curtis: I'm on ssb, where are the cool peeps? 01:39:58 light: mastodon is a decent step forward but needs to be easier to self-host. most users still trust third party hosts with their identity & data. 01:39:59 jin: ayy Mauve, sup webxr fam 01:40:45 patcon@hypha.coop: Just wanted to say that I really appreciate these thoughtful critiques of social dilemma, though I’m still glad it exists as both a focus and a foil for this very conversation <3 01:41:02 Jeremy Dunck: +1 01:41:16 Marc-Antoine Parent: yes and yes. 01:41:26 Rebecca Sentance: I haven't seen it but I intend to consume it with an analytical/critical mindset :) 01:41:50 jin: yeah we need easy hardware to self host, plug n play solutions.. was thinking the same thing when setting up matrix synapse server 01:42:37 Alex Dempsey: Bravo 01:42:48 Rebecca Sentance: Very good take on the whole "you are the product" aphorism 01:43:23 Dominic Letz: @jin like that idea of plug'n'play self host, tell me more about that 01:43:24 Gyuri Lajos: "need easy hardware to self host" 01:43:25 light: sandstorm was a nice move in that direction. it's a software solution not hardware, but could be installed on an x86 server at your house or in a data center. it makes self-hosted server app administration easier. 01:43:27 Mel: Self-host is really cool but something that needs to stay online as much as mastodon is not gonna be self-hosted on mobile. You'd need to normalize having communal nodes, or bundling such nodes into home routers 01:43:42 Mauve: ^ 01:43:47 yoannis: What’s the url to happening platform? 01:44:10 Mauve: I'm really into having stuff work offline and over local networks, and self hosting backup servers / stuff for resiliancy 01:44:11 Aeva Black: if self hosting could be as easy to buy / set up as it is to buy a cell phone and install a few apps, I think we'd see more traction. 01:44:13 jin: how about a pocket router with vpn / easy to install dweb services? gl-inets are pretty good, comes with openwrt by default 01:44:14 Curtis: https://happening.net/events 01:44:29 Gyuri Lajos: Not users, not end-users but edge-edge users 01:44:32 Brian Behlendorf: mailinabox is worth checking out too - self-hosting email, with all the right DNS/anti-spam tools installed & updated. Can run on a VPS or home hardware, including a raspberry pi 01:44:34 Aeva Black: However, just making "set it up" consumer friendly wouldn't address issues around backup, DNS, ISPs, etc. 01:44:35 yoannis: Thanks! :thumbs: 01:44:41 Gyuri Lajos: Your browser is all you need go WebNative 01:44:59 Robert Best: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability 01:45:05 markseery: But Cambridge Analytica mined the FB graph? 01:45:29 light: yess. own your data AND own your social graph :100: 01:45:46 Benjamin De Kosnik: CA got the graphs ... when that data grab was allowed on the FB platform 01:45:48 Marc-Antoine Parent: @markseery: they closed the api a lot since then. 01:45:49 Margaret Warren: can this chat be downloaded as a file at the end of the event? I really want to read all of these comments later 01:45:51 Wendy Hanamura: If you folks have questions for the panel, please put them here! 01:45:53 Ed@Yarrish.com Allentown PA USA: See BrightID.org for identity 01:46:01 Kaliya Identity Woman: the real issue is why does facebook own our social graph… we need to own our social graph and we need open standards to do this. Turns out that is quite hard…but good news is … we have those standards now - Decentralized Identifiers (currently being standardized at the W3C) and a protocol called DIDComm to make peer to peer connections (being standardized at the Decentralized Identity Foundation). 01:46:17 Benjamin De Kosnik: agreed, portable social graphs are necessary 01:46:22 Benedict Lau: I think it comes down to what you stick into that gl-inets box and how much you’re willing to pay for it, in $ and in labour 01:46:45 Fabien Benetou: FWIW http://xmlns.com/foaf/spec/ 01:47:07 Fabien Benetou: started way back when 01:47:22 Benedict Lau: on the cloud end we have sandstorm, cloudron, yunohost. they work reasonably well 01:47:53 Kaliya Identity Woman: Decentralized Identifiers @W3C - https://w3c.github.io/did-core/ Here is the imp mentors guide of DIDComm - https://identity.foundation/didcomm-messaging/guide/ 01:48:02 Jeremy Dunck: What stopped FOAF from getting to critical mass? 01:48:04 Benedict Lau: on the hardware bundling front, we have freedom box, and other initiatives 01:48:29 John Merrells: https://freedomboxfoundation.org/ 01:48:30 Pete Kaminski: @Margaret, just above where you type into chat, click the three-dot button on the right, the click "Save Chat". you can do it whenever, and the file you saved gets updated. 01:48:32 Paul Lindner: Is anyone else here worried that we have too much tech-solutionism for social problems? 01:48:45 Gyuri Lajos: Who is doing the job of ensuring that decentralized ecosystem do not become silos of capabilities but can interoperate withal the others? 01:48:58 Mauve: Paul: 100% 01:49:05 Jim Fenton: @Paul Lindner: Yes. And I’m a techie. 01:49:09 Kaliya Identity Woman: FOAF still anchors into private names spaces - until you have the actual anchors for people and their IDs anchored in software and identifiers they control it can’t work. You need to own your own social graph outside of any particular application. 01:49:22 zda: Paul: Yes 01:49:24 Benedict Lau: Paul: yes very and always 01:49:28 Benjamin De Kosnik: Paul: Yes 01:49:29 Margaret Warren: thanks everyone for the 'save chat' pointer! got it :-) 01:49:38 Gyuri Lajos: to own your own social graph outside of any particular application. Just ensure that People can be their own Hubs! 01:49:53 Michael Staub: @Gyuri THIS is the problem, look at mastodon vs diaspora as a perfect example 01:50:47 Margaret Warren: +1 @kaliya Identity Woman 01:51:03 Dominic Letz: at diode.io we have been working on turning any edge device into a publicly reachable server (e.g. the box under your desk) -- but we have a hard time building an easy to use user experience around that 01:51:12 Gyuri Lajos: We are addressing that problem https://twitter.com/TrailHub1 01:51:29 Mauve: Hot take: Servers bad 01:51:33 Benedict Lau: I think the “ramp” is also important, for example you can start using X as a e2e-encrypted zero knowledge SaaS, but you can download the database anytime you want and ask your friend to host it or host it yourself 01:51:36 Pete Kaminski: "FinCEN Files: All you need to know about the documents leak - BBC News" https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54226107 01:51:38 light: I own my Blockstack name :) light.id https://explorer.blockstack.org/name/light.id 01:51:58 Michael Staub: W3C only really works because there are a handful of stakeholders ( browser vendors ) and even then look what happened - we have 2 engines ( google + apple ) 01:52:12 Damo: Fines aren't adequate to convince large firms to stop their anti-competitive behavior. The open source community has to effectively compete on utility and user experience. 01:52:29 Benedict Lau: Damo: +1 01:52:32 Michael Staub: @Damo I totally agree. 01:52:40 Benjamin De Kosnik: @Michael Staub 3 engines, +gecko 01:52:42 Damo: Aligning stakeholder interest on the profit-sharing side could be the nail in the coffin. 01:52:43 Gyuri Lajos: GDPR legalized data collection it is unworkable 01:52:45 Benedict Lau: >compete on utility and user experience 01:53:05 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Gyuri, +1 on failure of gdpr. 01:53:06 Gyuri Lajos: Do not compete aim to complete 01:53:15 Benedict Lau: that is not only on the software end, but the service end as well, and not many projects are able to scale the service reliability to match say… slack 01:53:24 zda: Damo: +1 01:53:25 peter wells: some interesting pieces on interoperability by Ian Brown here >> https://www.ianbrown.tech/category/interoperability/ 01:53:29 Michael Staub: @Benjamin after seeing what happened to Mozilla I think gecko will die 01:53:31 Benedict Lau: we need better open source _institutions_ 01:53:34 Pete Kaminski: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act 01:53:50 Damo: Love to hear more about your framing here Gyuri: "Do not compete aim to complete" 01:53:58 Aeva Black: Damo: for better or worse, open source is now a core part of business for many of these very large tech firms. 01:54:01 Fabien Benetou: we have 3 engines please ( google + apple + mozilla ) 01:54:13 John Wilkinson: UX is a difficult beast to tame... how can decentralized products compete with massively funded corporate design departments? This is the biggest problem I have with trying to get people on the bus 01:54:16 Kaliya Identity Woman: Hyperledger Aires has open source agents that speak DIDComm and can be a starting point for people to connect peer to peer out of any network https://wiki.hyperledger.org/display/aries 01:54:23 Damo: Aeva true but that doesn't mean anything to end users. Open Source needs to act on the front end, not just the core. 01:54:26 Gyuri Lajos: It is not Open Source we need but open capabiliteis 01:54:28 Benjamin De Kosnik: @Michael, what can browser vendors do in the dweb space? 01:54:30 Aeva Black: permissive and weak copyleft licenses don't prevent tech giants from profiting from (or with) open source project growth. it's not that simple a solution 01:54:31 Michael Staub: @Fabien didn’t Mozilla recently lay off most of the team on Firefox dev tools? 01:54:52 Pete Kaminski: "Facebook v. Power Ventures | Electronic Frontier Foundation"
https://www.eff.org/cases/facebook-v-power-ventures 01:54:56 Gyuri Lajos: They just privatise the lot as with GitHub Cannonic 01:54:57 Peter Van Garderen: What about Facebook export capability? 01:54:57 Fabien Benetou: yes 25% staff overall but that doesn't touch the engine, a shame still, including WebXR (sigh) 01:55:08 Benedict Lau: @Gyuri +1 to "open capabiliteis" 01:55:09 Kaliya Identity Woman: Interoperability needs to be based on open standards. 01:55:19 Peter Van Garderen: You can export your Facebook content, but it’s a static snapshot. 01:55:24 Marc-Antoine Parent: export is not the same as interim, no real-time 01:55:29 Peter Van Garderen: yeah 01:55:41 Damo: @Gyuri +1 to open capabilities 01:55:43 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: I'm really glad you're raising this problem with regulation, Michael! 01:55:50 Jeremy Dunck: The New Zealand shooting resulted in large projects for compliance. Regulation becomes a resource DoS. 01:56:00 Damo: @Kaliya +1 to Interoperability needs to be based on open standards 01:56:06 Marc-Antoine Parent: absolutely 01:56:13 Benjamin De Kosnik: just in case people don't know about Owen Mundy, this was the way to export the FB social graph, now doesn't work: https://owenmundy.com/site/give-me-my-data 01:56:19 peter wells: +1 +1 to open standards, that's what we're trying to get to in EU (see Ian Brown ^^), just like we got open standards into sector-level data portability initiatives like open banking 01:56:28 Marc-Antoine Parent: yes, many regulations are harmful to OSS projects. 01:56:30 light: FB is doing advertising to say how much they love regulation haha 01:56:42 light: Regulatory Capture 101 01:56:54 Marc-Antoine Parent: we want regulation that makes it easier to innovate, not entrenches power 01:56:54 Phatn: Tech compliance should just be a test suite :) 01:56:57 Fabien Benetou: same for Google, lovely to see those ads in Brussels 01:57:07 Brian Behlendorf: A large fine against FANG could go towards funding a non-profit a develop practical tools for adversarial interop, rather than forcing the companies to build something they won't have the motivation to do well 01:57:16 Mark Carranza: what does "private right of action" mean? 01:57:24 markseery: Would compliance would be as difficult for social media entrepreneurs if the company / platform did not own or host the data? 01:57:40 Jeremy Dunck: @Mark - https://uslawessentials.com/20141116what-is-an-implied-private-right-of-action/ 01:57:52 Kaliya Identity Woman: Open Standards are not hard - they are actually easier for the little guy to implement. Diaspora was open source but they were oblivious to open standards - which I believe are actually more important in some ways. 01:58:03 Damo: @Brian Behlendorf how do you get the body levying the fine to effectively craft such a nonprofit? I have no such faith. 01:58:12 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Kaliya totally 01:58:31 Damo: @Kaliya +1 01:58:32 Brian Behlendorf: @Damo fortunately there are already a family of such non-profits ready 01:58:35 andre: will there be a recording available? 01:58:39 Maria Swietlik: I don't believe that interoperability is a final solution neither. There is still big unbalance of power - big companies VS small companies not mentioning individuals (users). Big companies would still be able to to extract value from every day activity of each user and manipulate political processes 01:58:41 Marc-Antoine Parent: open standards are foundation of open capabilities 01:58:45 Christoph Witzany: Decentralization is nothing without interoperability 01:59:26 Marc-Antoine Parent: well part of what needs to be interoperable is individual ownership of data ;-) 01:59:29 Damo: @Maria Agree but in a phase transition this is key for what anarchists might attribute to their core value of the right to "voice and exit". 01:59:33 Simonetta Vezzoso: EU Ex-ante regulation for gatekeepers would apply only to them, not to the small guys (talk is also of interoperability and data portability requirements) - asymmetrical regulation is possible... 01:59:34 Kaliya Identity Woman: Just having a dominant “solution” isn’t really an open standard - so question is what open standards does Matrix use. 01:59:43 Jim Fenton: Email is not the most successful example of open standards I can think of, unfortunately. 01:59:49 Paul Lindner: A focus on the feedback loops that lead to centralization would be welcome. There has to be a balancing feedback loop to counteract the reinforcement ones. 01:59:51 Damo: It lowers the barrier to entry to compete and makes it easier to implement data protocols where the user owns and controls their own 01:59:53 Rocky G: Interop still allows big corp to do it and overlay non compatible stuff that their users love, thus locking out the small guy again 01:59:54 Gyuri Lajos: It is not standards we need but user- extensibility, tinkerablity co-evolvability, ability to build born interoperable stuff 01:59:57 Alex Dempsey: Struck by the similar concentrating power of regulation and new features. It's reckless to make a new browser if you have to support all of the features of the modern web. 02:00:20 Paul Lindner: What are the balancing loops? And where are the leverage points where they can be added? 02:00:22 light: Kaliya: matrix _is_ an open standard. 02:00:31 Kaliya Identity Woman: Where is it standardized? 02:00:35 Oliver Terbu: DIDComm is a transport-layer agnostic async e2e messaging protocol with PFS based on DIDs. Could be useful for matrix. 02:00:37 Maria Swietlik: I would rather go for public not individual ownership of data 02:00:47 Kitsune: Kaliya - matrix.org 02:00:52 Kitsune: matrix.org/foundation 02:01:00 Ben Parsons: Protocol is documented at https://matrix.org/docs/spec/ 02:01:20 Kaliya Identity Woman: a .org isn’t an international standards organization just to be clear its a project opening what it does. 02:01:21 Christoph Witzany: A truly open standard must be very careful to be as small as possible to allow easy implementation. 02:01:38 Kitsune: Kaliya - .org is just a place of publication. 02:01:42 Jim Fenton: @light @kaliya I hope we differentiate a standard (something that has received some review and interoperability test) from a specification (that is just something that someone publishes). 02:01:56 Christoph Witzany: For matrix as much as I appreciate the effort, there exists only one implementation so far. 02:01:58 Kitsune: You should really look at matrix.org/foundation to understand how it's protected. 02:02:04 Gyuri Lajos: Any one can build born interoperable capabilities just relying on the standards baked into the browser + DHT be it IPFS or HOLO or AirWave or anything that is coming up 02:02:19 Kaliya Identity Woman: It would be great to see more collaboration between Matrix and the Decentralized Identity community 02:02:37 Marc-Antoine Parent: yes and yes 02:02:37 Damo: @Rocky G "Interop still allows big corp to do it and overlay non compatible stuff that their users love, thus locking out the small guy again" Interop makes this possible for all players, large and small. Frankly, this is where I think it's legitimate to create private enterprise value, just minus the anti-competitive IP capture aspect. If an enterprising company, large or small, innovates new features that users love I'd like to see them benefit from that until other companies decide to integrate similar features to the point it becomes baked into the foundational, open standard. 02:02:40 Oliver Terbu: +1 Kaliya 02:02:56 Jeremy Dunck: @Cory - Abolish API licensing? 02:03:05 Ira and Joachim (Jolocom): Kaliya… Matrix uses open standards.. that’s the ideal case rather than creating your own ;) 02:03:33 Liza Loop: “As a user” most of us are too ignorant to choose the system that “works for me” in the long run, sadly. 02:03:41 Aeva Black: an "open protocol definition", built by one body, is different than a standard defined by a committee with reps from across the industry. 02:03:47 murilopolese: I thought the whole point of Social Dillema was how big tech has made us incapable of choosing the best for our own interest 02:03:53 Damo: If anything I'm afraid of big corps being able to quickly mimic the innovation of small players, to the point I'd rather see a phenomenon of new features being IP for a reasonable period of time and a crowdfunding/incentive prize platform offering the opportunity for the commons to buy it outright. 02:03:53 Jim Fenton: @Ira: Matrix uses open standards or is an open standard? 02:03:54 Paul Lindner: One idea: some sort of reverse metcalf's law, so that as a participant grows larger there are anti-network effects that keep things in scale. 02:04:01 Kitsune: @Christoph Witzany - other implementations are in the works, both on client and server sides. 02:04:15 Aeva Black: @Jim both 02:04:16 Kitsune: @Jim Fenton - it does and it is. 02:04:16 Aditya Advani: The key to success against deepfakes is attribution of content to publishers 02:04:17 Aditya Advani: https://medium.com/@aditya_advani/how-to-defeat-fake-news-with-a-screenshot-verification-service-svs-e80867dfbc58 02:04:28 Aeva Black: Matrix is an open standard and a reference implementation of client/server using that standard 02:04:47 Kitsune: Uhm, an implementation is not really called Matrix, sorry. 02:05:02 Aeva Black: apologies. the implementation names are different now 02:05:03 Christoph Witzany: @Kitsune: I know ... but there is no kambrian explosion yet like with email servers/clients 02:05:16 Kitsune: Well it's just 6 years ;) 02:05:34 Gyuri Lajos: Oh there is 02:05:35 Abhik Chowdhury: A great talk on decentraliized governance from the protocol labs youtube channel! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=981FhtbX8vU 02:05:36 Jim Fenton: OK, I’m just aware of lots of other things calling themselves “standards” when they have serious interoperability problems. I’m not specifically familiar with Matrix. 02:05:48 light: @aditya nice post, I had a similar idea: https://twitter.com/lightcoin/status/960619959784263681 02:05:50 Margaret Warren: Provenance of materials/resources is a huge part of the issue that is hard for people to do, they don't want to worry about metadata....even in decentralization --- having our media disconnected from it's grounding/it's integrity is a problem no matter what system is predominant on the web. 02:05:51 Gyuri Lajos: so many attempts at architecting it 02:05:52 Aeva Black: I haven't tracked all the different projects that emerged around the Matrix protocol. there are several, with different names, and that's a good thing 02:06:24 Kitsune: We're still just in the early steps of sprouting things out... 02:06:49 Paul Frazee: Bundling and unbundling 02:07:19 Kitsune: What's extremely assuring is that independent server-side implementations started to grow. Independent clients have been around for some time by now (if not as complete as Element). 02:07:24 Kaliya Identity Woman: A private company should not own our social commons - full stop. 02:07:33 Kerri Lemoie: What are the economic advantages & business model possibilities of the decentralized web? 02:07:52 Gyuri Lajos: on my GitHub account I am just 2 short of 400 starred projects half of them are in the DWeb space the other are components needed https://github.com/gyuri-lajos 02:07:52 zda: Yeah it's a bit odd for a business to be running an "open standard" 02:08:06 Mauve: Hot take: Money bad 02:08:09 Benjamin De Kosnik: @jaygraber, interesting idea had not heard this before. Federated content, but wouldn't this require legal intervention (at least in the USA) to implement? 02:08:10 Liza Loop: @Kaliya. Yes. Each should “own” his/her own. 02:08:18 Margaret Warren: federated content 02:08:21 Margaret Warren: yes 02:08:34 Matthew Hodgson: there's a pretty cambrian explosion happening with Matrix implementations fwiw - there are a huge number of clients and SDKs. there are fewer servers (4 viable ones currently: synapse, dendrite, conduit and construct, and a bunch of failed ones), but it's not that shabby 02:08:35 Margaret Warren: interesting concept 02:08:40 Kitsune: Element doesn't own Matrix. 02:08:42 Aeva Black: @zda not at all. lots of companies have published a standard protocol to interact with their services. 02:08:49 Liam Whalen: boardgamegeek.com’s image moderation system uses Geek Gold to reward correct content approval votes. 02:08:55 Aeva Black: but in this case, it's not owned by .. yeah, what Kitsune just said :) 02:09:05 Kaliya Identity Woman: @liza yes and to do that you need open standards for the digital identity itself - and protocols to connect to other people (with software under your control - with no intermediary). 02:09:11 duke crawford: select option: 1 legislate above broken money model 2 make money-as-commodity illegal 3 currency can simply measure https://blog.p2pfoundation.net/money-should-not-be-a-commodity-but-a-measure-of-value/2012/08/13 02:09:12 Benjamin De Kosnik: agree that Matrix post-2016 dweb summit has had the most successful distributed chat platform 02:09:15 Brian Behlendorf: Aren't these moderated forums close to the people what we call "mailing lists"? That's still the majority of my "social media" engagement 02:09:18 Marc-Antoine Parent: Jay's idea of federated moderation is key, but we still need a way to avoid echo chamber's moderation. 02:09:46 Kitsune: @Marc-Antoine Parent - exactly 02:09:48 Brian Behlendorf: I choose which lists to be on based on who's the host, and they often have very different moderation approaches, but I love the freedom 02:09:52 Margaret Warren: I am not sure 'federated' is quite the right phrase...imo the model is more about content integrity 02:09:52 Holly Liu: Yes , exactly 02:09:54 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: I'm not sure legal intervention can do the trick, because internet networks are inherently transnational, while laws are national. There is a danger with legal interventions we end up with a lack of cross-border interoperability. 02:10:21 Innocent: The problem at the end of the day is user experience. For the majority of folks in developed and developing with no tech background many of the platforms/solutions have very high entry costs 02:10:23 light: GFW but for every country 02:10:27 Pete Kaminski: The big question as I see it: is there a place for {humans in interconnected, human-scale collectives} in a world run by {hyperscale corporate superorganisms}? 02:10:31 Innocent: How do we design for the 'people'? 02:10:41 Mauve: Innocent: 100% 02:10:55 Kent Bye: I'm skeptical that technological architecture alone is going to solve this content moderation issue. It feels like the cultivation of culture and community needs to be a part of this somehow. Perhaps implementing a code of conduct and cultivating a culture is something that simply doesn't scale past a certain size. More on this in my interview with Jessica Outlaw on cultivating culture in VR and immersive spaces: http://voicesofvr.com/784-elements-of-culture-cultivating-community-with-jessica-outlaw/ 02:11:21 Mauve: Innocent: That's kinda why I don't like starting with servers / money as a building block. It makes it easy for people with wealth and tech infra, but makes it really hard for everyone else 02:11:29 Brian Behlendorf: I think the propensity to re-invent protocols (like SMTP) on the assumption that old=bad=unsalvageable is at least half the cause of the problem we're in. 02:11:37 Marc-Antoine Parent: filtering is both necessary for attention and context view so you see outside your bubble (yes, Amandine is saying it at the same time) 02:11:42 Benjamin De Kosnik: huge +1 02:11:56 Innocent: mauve; i think that is the dilemma 02:12:01 Marc-Antoine Parent: you need to be aware of beyond the bubble 02:12:03 Matthew Hodgson: hang on, matrix is trying to reinvent NNTP, not SMTP ;P 02:12:06 Kitsune: SMTP has been begging for reinvention for the last couple of decades... 02:12:10 Kaliya Identity Woman: Good news for folks interested in exploring the current state of open standards around digital identity we are hosting the 31st Internet Identity Workshop October 20-22 virtually. I created a code for 30% off for folks here “DWeb31” http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com 02:12:25 Kitsune: And yeah, what Matthew said :) 02:12:31 Kitsune: @Brian ^ 02:12:31 Wendy Hanamura: Questions for the panelists: please add them here 02:12:38 Phatn: creating room for the revolution is also important when moderation. 02:12:39 Mel: https://cblgh.org/articles/trustnet.html as another moderation scheme 02:12:50 Margaret Warren: journalists and publishers have a huge responsibility here, also imo - to get the attribution of content right. They left good habits with integrity of media assets by the way side a long time ago. Changing their bad habits would perhaps help the entire web to 'grow up' into a more civil space 02:12:56 Gyuri Lajos: No end-user but edge-user 02:12:59 Matthew Hodgson: (my ideal job would be to be prototyping UX for visualising and controlling filter bubbles) 02:13:15 Jim Fenton: I don’t think we’re going to replace SMTP in our lifetimes (mine, anyway) but we need better distributed protocols for some of the things we use SMTP for. 02:13:16 Yar: smtp's problems are mostly caused by the server software being too complex IMO 02:13:29 Kitsune: @Matthew - you really don't know what you're calling for :) 02:13:32 Christoph Witzany: @Matthew: But I want a good solution for encrypted interorganizational communication 02:13:35 Liza Loop: I have the power to decide what content is acceptable to me. When I don’t like the beginning of a message I don’t read the rest. Nobody is forcing me to use Facebook. It seems like people are abdicating their own freedom. 02:13:52 Jeremy Dunck: Many moderation issues are largely addressed with hard ID -- not that hard ID is an unvarnished good. But allowing communities to define requirements for membership in a space would help. 02:13:53 Gyuri Lajos: +1 02:14:00 Yar: If you want to fix SMTP, write a simpler postfix with secure defaults 02:14:00 Brian Behlendorf: It's been tragic to watch all this energy going into bespoke silos of de novo protocols rather than into improvements into Thunderbird, which still has tens of millions of DAU 02:14:09 Rebecca Sentance: @Margaret Warren: in re: the responsibilities of journalists and publishers, I agree, but they would have more leeway to do that if they weren't locked into a desperate battle for eyeballs and trying to publish as much content as humanly possible instead of valuing content quality/accuracy 02:14:13 Brian Behlendorf: @yar check out mailinabox 02:14:13 James Monaghan: Question for panelists: what have you learned about getting these benefits to resonate with real users on the street? What is the level of utility we need to get to before we can be a credible alternative to the mainstream apps, rather than an uncomfortable trade-off for the privacy conscious? 02:14:13 light: I actually really like email *ducks* 02:14:17 Aeva Black: Question for the Panelists: how does a move towards more adoption of decentralized web intersect with the increasing nationalisation of technology around the world (for example, the US's move to block Huawei, ByteDance, and with the EO last year around software supply chain security, potentially more)? 02:14:21 Jim Fenton: @yar Much of that complexity comes from SMTP’s propensity to be abused. 02:14:24 Matthew Hodgson: brian: good news; thunderbird core team has been enthusiastically implementing matrix :P 02:14:32 Gyuri Lajos: As long as you rely on servers your communication is enclosed . 02:14:32 brewster@archive.org: Apropos of nothing but https://www.meetup.com/dwebsf/ is getting 503 error. 02:14:43 Brian Behlendorf: @matthew I know, have been watching 02:14:49 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: @Liza The problem is that many people are forced to use Facebook because it is the way their friends and family communicate. 02:15:19 Yar: the complexity CAUSES the abuse. mailinabox is just a wrapper, there's only so much you can do with that 02:15:24 Christoph Witzany: Yar: SMTP/IMAP securrity is unfixable because there is so much legacy code out there that would needed to be updated 02:15:44 Marc-Antoine Parent: smtp was designed in a trusted environment, not in an adversarial info warfare environment :-( 02:15:51 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: I second Aeva Black's question. 02:16:04 Jim Fenton: Marc-Antoine: +1 02:16:32 Innocent: i think we will need an approach that is similar in the complementary/cooperative currency space. 02:16:35 cgaf99.me: I keep having nostalgic thoughts about webrings. They were so delightfully, cooperatively hopeful. 02:16:36 trav: Jay talking about discourse moving to private groups reminds me of Squad Wealth, https://otherinter.net/squad-wealth/, "The group is the basic user class for the tools we need today as a society, yet few pieces of software allow the squad as a whole to produce cooperatively and generate wealth together" 02:16:38 Darrell Duane (DC): New talk from Jaron Lanier: "How Social Media is Controlling Human Behavior" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_Hu93OMHZA 02:16:43 Margaret Warren: a lot of these open protocols - matrix/solid, etc. need developers to build on them but there doesn't seem to be a large enough 'middle class' of developer/users to reach that edge of huge adoption....like going back to Myspace days 02:16:45 Kent Bye: QUESTION: Does the DWeb need a crisis to be more widely adopted? (i.e. censorship, rolling black outs, DDoS attacks, consolidation of tech power). What's the catalyst to bring more cultural awareness to decentralized alternatives when economies of scale, centralized systems are easier to do on nearly every aspect of building, deploying, & adopting? 02:16:52 Innocent: We need to understand what needs to be governed globally, and what should be governed locally. 02:17:16 peter wells: @wendy question for panelists: if part of the answer is new (or old in case of antitrust...) regulation being enforced in the tech space then which politicians are you hopeful will fight for it? How do we get more politicians who are willing to help make it happen, particularly in the USA where much of this tech is currently built? 02:17:18 Liza Loop: @Dominic. I have many other ways to communicate with my friends and family beyond FB. If one of them refuses to change channels, well, tough. Our communication degrades. The same would be true about transportation media (walk or take a plane). 02:17:34 Gyuri Lajos: Getting rid of location addressing and client/server towards content addressing and edge-computing that makes People be the Platform 02:17:37 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Innocent: ideal is alignment of local action on global goals, so negotiation vs governance 02:17:42 Margaret Warren: On Michael's last message - the recent attempt to control TikTok and WeChat 02:18:31 Mauve: Question to panelists: How will these systems help elevate people that are martinalized either financially or globally? Is that a primary concern for you? 02:18:43 Rebecca Sentance: "each filled with screenshots of the other four" okay, I LOLed 02:18:44 Marc-Antoine Parent: It's not just reputation. we have to unify content's underlying ideas, so we don't have to refute the same point an indefinite amount of times. 02:18:55 Kitsune: Question for the panelists: big companies need big money to function (putting aside all ethical issues). What would entice them in decentralised structures? Or is DWeb for smaller companies? 02:19:05 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: @Liza I too have managed to avoid Facebook for this purpose, but I know people whose entire families almost exclusively use Facebook to plan meetups etc. Cutting off from Facebook for those people effectively means cutting off from all their family. We need to a solution to this. 02:19:24 asdf: Way to chokeslam the wrestlers 02:19:26 Robert Best: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe 02:19:27 Rebecca Sentance: @Kitsune What if there were no big companies? 02:19:28 Benjamin De Kosnik: Question for Panelists: given the successes in dweb world post-2016 are more platform oriented, (cloudflare->IPFS, element->France gov, chat.mozilla.org) what spark user-level adoption of these protocols? Dweb use, in actuality, is dominated by bittorrent. Still. 02:19:33 Paul Lindner: "Structural Centralization" 02:19:33 Yar: so rude to wrestling 02:20:03 Gyuri Lajos: "Just because you are paranoid it does not mean that they are not out to get you" Catch 22 02:20:08 Kitsune: @Rebecca - that's a part of the question. Big companies are already here - either they should go (unrealistic) or they should have an interest in this setup. 02:20:26 Rocky G: ++ @Gyuri 02:20:37 Gyuri Lajos: Google CEO said 10 years ago Google requires users's trust 02:20:47 Gyuri Lajos: Once we stop trusting them they are toast 02:20:52 Rebecca Sentance: @Kitsune Yeah, I agree it's unrealistic. Yet the alternative is constantly pandering to their interests 02:21:02 Margaret Warren: this is so brilliant @cory. so true. 02:21:04 Gyuri Lajos: Vote with your feet 02:21:08 Kitsune: Their interests can be different. 02:21:26 Kitsune: Facebook's interest is not something inherent to Big Business. 02:21:31 Liza Loop: @Dominic. I agree. But notice that that family isn’t a small silo. Those folks don’t need FB tech and global reach. They need to learn that there are other communication facilities. 02:21:32 Rebecca Sentance: Profit? 02:21:41 Liza Loop: @Cory - Yeah! 02:21:44 Innocent: Questions to panelist: Is the problem with the internet actually economic not infrastructural? if so, how are dWeb solution's going to overcome the economic question? 02:21:45 Aeva Black: @Gyuri the problem is, there aren't options any more. the options that we see are largely fronts for a few large companies behind them. 02:21:51 Yar: but you can't make common cause with beer & wrestling fans if you make jokes about their intelligence 02:21:55 Jim Fenton: @Gyuri Harder to vote with your feet when Google Analytics (for example) is everywhere. You need to take active action if you want to block that. 02:22:01 Stijn Christiaens: 2 companies making all the beer is an outrage! 02:22:07 Aeva Black: @Cory brilliantly said, as usual. thank you. 02:22:13 Travis FW: spoken like someone from EFF. Cory's not wrong, except that you can indeed fight tech with tech. 02:22:14 Arezoo Moseni: brilliant Cory. 02:22:25 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: @Liza That's true, but its not easy to convince most people to use different communication systems. 02:22:50 Alex Dempsey: Check out Matt Stoller for a telling of the anti-monopolist history in the US 02:22:56 Innocent: Questions to panelist: Should we be building alternative or complementary infrastructures? 02:23:06 Liza Loop: @Dominic. Agree. It’s not easy. We call it ‘education’. 02:23:07 Paul Lindner: @Travis FW would like to know how tech succeeded on it's own 02:23:10 Fabien Benetou: @Jim Firefox blocks GA by default iirc. Sure it's not the default browser but that's a "smaller" step. 02:23:19 Brian Behlendorf: We need more small batch artisinal social web tech :) 02:23:30 Aeva Black: @Travis in some of the cases in front of us, tech can not solve the problem without legislative guardrails. See for example requiring transparency in machine learning // facial recognition. 02:23:31 Margaret Warren: it all comes down to the money motivations though. There are not a lot of motivations for humans to take care of humans 02:23:34 Paul Lindner: The early internet only happened with the breakup of AT&T and creation of the ILECs 02:23:39 Jim Fenton: @Fabien That’s good news. Not expecting Chrome will do that anytime soon :) 02:23:49 Liza Loop: @Brian. Yes. Actually, we already have that for beer. 02:24:01 Yar: "There are not a lot of motivations for humans to take care of humans" <--citation needed 02:24:08 murilopolese: Remembering Popcorn Time 02:24:08 Paul Lindner: And dot-com only happened because NSF got rid of the non-commercial restrictions. 02:24:27 Kitsune: Innovator's Dilemma. 02:24:35 Margaret Warren: There are not a lot of motivations for humans to take care of humans -- Margaret Warren -- LOL 02:24:41 David Schmudde: @brianBehlendorf - yeah there is a lot of exciting IndieWeb stuff happening, RE: artisinal social web tech. 02:24:46 Stijn Christiaens: Thanks for organizing, and thanks for all the speakers! Keep up the good work. 02:24:55 Paul Lindner: Most tech successes can be traced back to a seminal human change of the unederlying system that paved the way. 02:24:58 Arezoo Moseni: we need more meaningful ethics and not more apps and tech. 02:24:59 Travis FW: Sorry, I said we can indeed fight tech with tech, but I should add that we're not really fighting just tech we're fighting corporations and yes we need to engage on all three fronts, economic, law and government, and and tech 02:25:01 Fabien Benetou: @Jim indeed, good thing Chrome is not the default browser on millions of mobile device... oh, woops. :P the beauty of vertical integration of surveillance capitalism. 02:25:21 James Monaghan: Thank you for those answers! 02:25:45 Robert Drost: Centralization finds it’s ways into systems along three dimensions, logical, politics, architectural. This post gives a good overview of how the centralization to decentralization spectrum interplays along these dimensions: https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274 02:26:33 CarlG: Q. What are some issues do you see with current attempts in Congress to modify Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (CDA) to limit immunity to online platforms, particularly with dweb apps? 02:26:48 jin: google takeout -> download all your google data -> present in a non-tracking environment 02:27:00 Benjamin De Kosnik: again with "magic step" where we can munge private platform data 02:27:06 Kitsune: Firefox is half-way with fencing out Facebook :) 02:27:45 Lorenzo: Why beating Facebook in an open battle? We need a society, tax funded Social Media alternative, decentralized, where clear names and real ID checks are mandatory 02:27:50 bd Wall: How about a Framework for the kind of system of protocols that we really need? Why not build an open source, p2p Operating System that includes distributed storage, p2p infrastructure, and an interface accessible by non-technical users but also incorporates both time and spatial dimensions? Total Data Ownership Total Data Privacy Community Centric Permissions Off-Grid First Operation Usability and Accessibility as a core focus Native 3D interface Gatekeeperless infrastructure and interfaces Modular & Pluggable components Tools for Data Infrastructure and redundancy Hardware Agnostic and Supportive of Open Protocols https://plan-systems.org 02:27:56 Marc-Antoine Parent: but that's why we need an open standard so many network platforms can share a user base. 02:28:24 Aeva Black: Question for the Panelists (clarification from above) how does a move towards wider adoption of decentralized web intersect with the increasing national isolationism of technology around the world? for example, see the US's move to block Huawei, ByteDance. for citation, see the link below to an Executive Order to secure the US's software supply chain. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-securing-information-communications-technology-services-supply-chain/ 02:28:24 Fabien Benetou: Social WebXR with Mozilla Hubs ;) 02:28:40 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: @Lorenzo Would I as a British person be able to communicate with Americans or Europeans on a taxpayer-funded social media system? 02:28:42 Juan Caballero: Don't all of those markets assume huge economies of scale? 02:28:43 Benedict Lau: It takes a lot of human labour to build good user interface and reliable service levels, these work are iterative and the operational costs recurring, how should this work be funded from early stage to becoming sustainable institutions? 02:28:55 Matthew Hodgson: Hubs + Decentraland + Cryptovoxels + .... :) 02:28:56 Kaliya Identity Woman: Good news for folks interested in exploring the current state of open standards around digital identity we are hosting the 31st Internet Identity Workshop October 20-22 virtually. I created a code for 30% off for folks here “DWeb31” http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com 02:29:11 jin: work backgrounds 5 years from now when wearable computing interfaces become more mainstream :thinking: 02:29:22 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: I love Cryptovoxels! 02:29:27 Kent Bye: VR & AR are creating decentralized metaphors of private rooms that are more ephemeral, real-time, and peer-to-peer. 02:29:27 Pete Kaminski: "Amazon Sidewalk: a new way to stay connected" https://blog.aboutamazon.com/devices/amazon-sidewalk-a-new-way-to-stay-connected 02:29:30 Lorenzo: @ Dominic I dont know, but i hope so^^ 02:29:44 johnconorryan: From @Benedict's note: thinking about the viable "business models" is at least as important as thinking about the desired societal outcomes and technologies. 02:29:51 Travis FW: yes! Jay: let's get ahead of new tech, not compete against established companies by differentiating on nothing but the license of the source code and location of data 02:30:02 Jim Fenton: Jay’s comment on business models is right on. 02:30:21 Fabien Benetou: federated layer on top of Hubs https://web.immers.space (code https://github.com/wmurphyrd/immers ) 02:30:26 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: @Lorenzo I suspect it might be difficult in the current political environment, but I could be wrong. 02:30:57 talbert: The decentralized version of amazon sidewalk is actually being created by Helium and the network is being bootstrapped & incentivized using crypto rewards to adopters who buy the hotspot. So open source, decentralized and user powered. 02:31:25 Benedict Lau: Protocol -> App -> UI -> DevOps -> Organizational -> Monetization -> … 02:31:28 Jeremy Dunck: In important ways, decentralized apps make moderation issues harder. 02:31:35 Paul Lindner: Moderation is a huge problem. 02:31:46 Pete Kaminski: "Helium – Introducing The People's Network" https://www.helium.com/ 02:31:57 Fabien Benetou: Jin: if you want to experiment on wearable today https://www.pine64.org/pinetime/ 02:31:59 Margaret Warren: I am working on an image graph and the tech to build it...just fyi. 02:32:01 Innocent: @Benedict... i would flip it 02:32:06 Benedict Lau: Projects need to go thru that path, and there isn’t funding path so many projects fall off in that road to becoming a better “Slack” 02:32:14 Kitsune: Moderation is a huge problem in any hyperconnected environment, as Facebook's and Twitter's fiascos show. 02:32:18 Benjamin De Kosnik: can we just admit here that bittorrent is the global anti-censorship distributed platform rn? 02:32:24 Paul Lindner: https://diff.substack.com/p/working-in-public-and-the-economics is informative 02:32:36 adam souzis: what about trust graphs and providing some form of self-moderation? does anyone know of any attempts to build that? 02:32:37 Innocent: @Benefict: oh.. i see your point 02:33:03 Paul Lindner: Running a successful open source project is just Good Will Hunting in reverse, where you start out as a respected genius and end up being a janitor who gets into fights. 02:33:06 Jim Fenton: @Paul Agree. Moderation is costly, and makes the business model much harder. 02:33:20 Paul Lindner: replace open source with decentralized project or standard 02:33:29 Paul Lindner: or decentralized instance. 02:33:33 Benedict Lau: In SV tech, you do multiple rounds increasing in value to fund that roadmap, but in FOSS, usually ppl start with heroic codebases, but that path to success req 02:33:37 Margaret Warren: good question @adam..."what about trust graphs and providing some form of self-moderation? does anyone know of any attempts to build that? " 02:33:37 Paul Lindner: You have to fight the nazi's yourself 02:33:40 Benedict Lau: a lot of diverse skillsets 02:33:59 zda: Does anyone have any SSB rooms to share? Just downloaded Manyverse 02:34:01 Lewis Cowles: is instant publishing even a goal in d-web? 02:34:02 Rocky G: An advantage Huawei has is that it is fully owned by the employees, so the only dividends go to employees and the majority of the profits get shoveled back into R&D 02:34:08 Benedict Lau: @Paul exactly :) 02:34:18 Yar: f the founder feels like a superjanitor then they didn't really decentralize 02:34:19 Jim Fenton: @Paul I worry that many people are not psychologically equipped to fight the nazis themselves. 02:34:25 Margaret Warren: I am working on the image graph for resource integrity. 02:34:34 Fabien Benetou: Sounds like the history of tech is being written by the winners, leveraging agnotology to avoid regulation. 02:34:45 Kitsune: @Paul @Jim but with federated moderation policies you can at least get allies in those fights. 02:35:05 Marc-Antoine Parent: but that works both ways: what is the risk of the disinformation machine going decentralized? 02:35:20 Kitsune: Disinformation machine is _already_ decentralised... 02:35:20 Sawood Alam: Q: Can we repurpose 2 decade old FOAF (friend of a friend) ontology and the open world assumption along with that to build decentralized identity systems and social network? 02:35:25 Benedict Lau: @Yar I am still hoping someone will take over my janitorial roles in organizational governance, accounting, proofreading, etc. 02:35:25 Marc-Antoine Parent: poitn. 02:35:28 Jim Fenton: @kitsune Hope so. Is this working in practice somewhere? 02:35:35 Innocent: breaking up tech will no solve anything lol. Economics is still a thing. We have magic money and ads propping most startups/busiensses. Tech companies are already functionally already 'broken up' 02:35:53 Matthew Hodgson: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/msc2313/proposals/2313-moderation-policy-rooms.md is Matrix's federated moderation stuff 02:36:00 Margaret Warren: yes, @Sawood --- we are using ontology tools like FOAF - 02:36:02 Matthew Hodgson: (which is live with mozilla.org and matrix.org and a few other places) 02:36:02 Kitsune: @Jim Mozilla has been liking Matrix's designs to that end. A bit early to say about high-scale success though. 02:36:28 Matthew Hodgson: currently it's just shared banlists though rather than more interesting greylists 02:36:31 Yar: disinformation is older than the internet and content moderation will not solve it 02:36:31 Innocent: I think using old/irrelevant anti-trust rules will lead us down a counterintuitive path 02:36:34 Jim Fenton: @kitsune Thanks. I see that I need to check out Matrix more. 02:36:37 Martin Dow: @adam souzis - Holochain.org provides some affordances to build groups with local rules/protocols 02:36:40 Margaret Warren: great question @Paul 02:36:45 Aeva Black: yes, lol 02:36:57 Lewis Cowles: hard agree on tech solutionism. 02:36:57 zda: Re this question, I appreciated the values document in the event email 02:37:02 Gyuri Lajos: can self-moderate 02:37:03 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Kitsune: and I agree that recentralizing is not the answer. But we need some unification mechanisms to avoid a info-guerilla war. This is why I want to switch the battleground from content to the underlying ideas. 02:37:13 Gyuri Lajos: If you have immutable provenance of conversations managed by the participants it can self-moderate 02:37:18 Travis FW: I'd love to hear someone talk about the potentiality of moving beyond apps. No web apps. No phone apps. If the identity and database are managed at the edges: locally, by individuals; it becomes possible. And control over large networks would become much more difficult to acquire. 02:37:41 Rocky G: hammer/nail 02:37:42 Gyuri Lajos: The Cetnralization inherent in the concept of the Web is a technical problem that needs to be solved 02:37:43 Maria Swietlik: Question: what gives a power to big companies is a monopoly on data that they are extracting from users. Individual ownership (control over) of data won't change it. Unbalance of power is too big. What are your thoughts on data trusts or other ideas around public ownership of data produced by users? 02:38:09 Sawood Alam: ADMINS: Can this chat be saved and shared later? 02:38:10 Gyuri Lajos: The source of the problem is techical 02:38:18 Innocent: lies 02:38:21 Innocent: lol 02:38:21 Pete Kaminski: tech is an accelerant, but the root problem is hyperscale, which is (sort of) a social problem 02:38:22 murilopolese: hahaha Hot take: Capitalism bad 02:38:23 Kitsune: @Marc-Antoine - well, I believe there's going to be some kind of clustering on certain sensitive topics, where you pick your trusted "curators" and take part in that curation too. 02:38:42 Gyuri Lajos: just click save chat 02:38:45 John Wilkinson: If you click the "..." above the chat there's a dropdown there where you can click "save chat" 02:38:49 Gyuri Lajos: … save chat 02:38:52 Mauve: Wow, that's a really spicy take 02:39:01 Ed@Yarrish.com Allentown PA USA: See Reinventing Organizations by Frederic Laloux 02:39:04 Marc-Antoine Parent: @Kitsune: sounds right, but we want to do it in a way that it doesn't become a new echo chamber. 02:39:08 Lewis Cowles: not a fully formed idea, but non symmetric / homogeneous governance is the only way to avoid tiktok race to bottom described earlier 02:39:20 Wendy Hanamura: We will also post the chat in a few decentralized places like SSB 02:39:34 Innocent: @Gyuri: the source of the problem is not the tech 02:39:34 Kitsune: @Marc-Antoine - that's what @Matthew Hodgson dreams of - to design UX around filter bubbles :) 02:39:43 Kitsune: (in a good way) 02:39:48 Liza Loop: Techies and Social Folks meet at IEEE Technology and Society https://technologyandsociety.org 02:39:53 Margaret Warren: How do we all get some of Bezos' money and funnel it to decentralized technology that will help other humans have better lives instead of groups just trying to get their hands on each other's money.? 02:40:08 Gyuri Lajos: TEch Exceptionalism! 02:40:16 Innocent: @Gyuri: i think this idea makes it seem like just building a new 'better' platform is the solution. 02:40:18 Gyuri Lajos: Tech is Universal 02:40:31 Yar: Get more people in seattle to vote socialist 02:40:32 Liza Loop: @Margaret. Send a message to Bezos. Ask him. Use every channel. 02:40:35 Gyuri Lajos: Tech can be all interoperable 02:40:40 Lewis Cowles: non symmetry creates the issue of "but mom, people in {circumstances} did it" 02:40:44 Jim Fenton: Spindle holes: sounds like print cartridges. 02:40:51 Margaret Warren: LOL....I think I will just get dead air 02:40:57 Mel: hAcK iNtO tHe BaNkS aNd ChAnGe ThE nUmBeRs 02:41:03 Innocent: @Gyuri: but the question is what is 'better'? Which is an ethical and social questions 02:41:04 Lewis Cowles: xd 02:41:23 Wilson Gibbins: Rate of technological change > Rate of cultural change > Rate of biological change 02:41:51 Yar: I've seen culture change more in the past 10 years than technology has 02:42:14 Margaret Warren: yes @Innocent --- basic human survival first maybe...then what? 02:42:17 Liza Loop: @Gyuri. Do we want a single vision of the ‘better’ or do we want that decentralization of the ‘good’ as well as the web? 02:42:21 Travis FW: TIL: rubber hose cryptoanalysis 02:42:33 Innocent: @Yar: But lol that is a function of changes in technology. INstagram, Twitter, Facebook 02:42:38 Matthew Hodgson: prerequisite xkcd: https://xkcd.com/538/ 02:42:50 John Wilkinson: the written word is a form of technology as well, just because computer technology is a relatively new form of tech doesn't mean it's the wrong one 02:43:03 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: @Liza I would go with the decentralisation of the 'good'. 02:43:17 CarlG: What happens when our DWeb platforms lose immunity from repealing/modifying Section 230 of the CDA? 02:43:17 Marc-Antoine Parent: it's a two-pronged problem: we do need tools to enable large-scale deliberative democracy, but also the social-legal infrastructure to legitimize it 02:43:23 Gyuri Lajos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pT9tDmxjlg 02:43:37 Romain Aubert: @AmandineLePape, Re open standards. What about Android open source OS? Android is an open source project, yes, but it is lead by Google. Android's market share is huge and Google's control of the OS is irrevocable and unchallengeable. My understanding is that Google can do whatever they want with Android OS (e.g. tracking) - even though it is Open Source. Is open source/standard the only remedy against big tech monopoly and control over people's online life? 02:43:38 Gyuri Lajos: The magic of Software 02:44:09 Kaliya Identity Woman: Open source =/= Open standards they are totally different 02:44:11 Liza Loop: There’s time to change tech but there isn’t time to ignore climate change. 02:44:12 Fabien Benetou: @Romain: you can have Android without Google services 02:44:18 light: grapheneOS 02:44:19 Yar: Tech has not caused the social changes of the past 10 years. The labor of activists has done that. 02:44:32 Benjamin De Kosnik: @Fabien try to remove chrome from android sometime 02:44:41 Fabien Benetou: That's not what I said 02:44:52 Margaret Warren: one of the problems is that we only have money as a guide to moderate ourselves --- no one knows how much is enough for them to experience the lives they themselves have decided they want to live... before they should share it. and many people - rather they have millions or pennies don't know how to answer what it means to live a quality life. 02:45:02 Benedict Lau: and pay to their crowdfunds :) 02:45:10 Wendy Hanamura: JOIN US for some fun, social time: https://gather.town/yDLHcduAtUVGITWf/dweb 02:45:16 Wendy Hanamura: PW: GetDWeb 02:45:20 John Wilkinson: Look into LineageOS if you're interested in android without google 02:45:21 Innocent: @Yar: tech has allowed you to see more of the change 02:45:23 Margaret Warren: *whether they have milions or pennies 02:45:48 Fabien Benetou: I said (again) you can have Android without Google services, I didn't say all versions of Android do come without Google services. Most do and when they do they on purpose make some services impossible to delete without changing the ROM. 02:45:50 Margaret Warren: and how much they are willing to share so that other people can live a quality life as well. 02:45:54 Yar: No @Innocent, talking to people has allowed that well enough 02:46:10 bd Wall: A Public Good is defined as a good or consumable that is infinitely reproducible and non-excludable; or more simply, usage of the good does not extract from the available supply. This is the beauty of open source software. Here’s what we’re are working on:
 End-to-end Data Privacy and Ownership
Peer-based Distributed Systems
Realtime Collaboration and Spatial Organization
Interfaces for Universal Inclusion

We’re a Technology 501(c)(3) https://plan-systems.org 02:46:21 Benedict Lau: we are expecting good UX, reliable infrastructure, community engagement, … for an annual budget of USD 4,619 https://opencollective.com/mastodon#section-budget 02:46:38 brewster@archive.org: Support and work on positive projects, vote with our time and $. 02:46:43 Benedict Lau: +1 02:46:50 Benjamin De Kosnik: +1 02:46:53 light: +1 Brewster! 02:46:56 Margaret Warren: Support more people on Patreon! :-) 02:46:56 Liza Loop: @Margaret. Yeah, and tech isn’t going to help us figure out how to live our lives or spend what money we have. 02:47:07 Gyuri Lajos: +1 02:47:12 Romain Aubert: Thank you, @Fabien 02:47:13 Margaret Warren: +1 Brewster. 02:47:19 Fabien Benetou: @Romain: there are also mobile versions of Linux that are not based on Android, some even sold installed on phones (e.g. PinePhone and Librsm) 02:47:35 Fabien Benetou: (well Linux + OS, my bad) 02:47:51 Yar: Some of the most powerful and impactful activists in this world don't even have a computer or smartphone. Showing empathy for others does not require technology, and tech should not take credit for it. 02:47:52 brewster@archive.org: Pls let Wendy know how Internet Archive can help support this work. 02:48:30 Benedict Lau: yes unlike selecting charities, it’s super easy to figure out who to donate to, open your phone app screen and search for all the fuss projects on patreon and open collective, a coffee to each monthly 02:48:30 Travis FW: 💛 brewster, thanks 02:49:06 Christoph Witzany: Is there a decentralized Patreon? 02:49:09 Kitsune: Great words, Amandine. 02:49:13 Liza Loop: @Amandine: Yeah! 02:49:19 Margaret Warren: great question @Christoph 02:49:22 Margaret Warren: I don't know 02:49:24 Yar: @Christoph cash 02:49:27 Travis FW: @benedict I would love to see charities and donation targets and all helpful orgs enumerated 02:49:28 brewster@archive.org: What do we need? $, housing, users, developers, testers, ? I want to do everything I can to help. We so need it. We need us. 02:49:29 talbert: Yes the feedback idea is great…and looking at the flip side and being optimistic, a smaller developer/group, enables teams to incorporate the feedback and iterate more quickly to challenge incumbents. 02:49:30 Innocent: Yar: but talk has been happen since well forever. Our technologies are exposing us to more. Giving us new knowledge to think and act differently. So my point is how much of the perceived change is just a widening of our aperture. Not promoting tech determinism at all. 02:49:38 Lewis Cowles: oh yes 02:49:44 Sébastien: A while back, Eben Moglen thought that the invention of the point-and-click mouse would destroy our relationship with machines, as non-programmer users no more have the complexity of language to interact with machines. So we're basically in a point-and-grunt era with monopolistic masters on what we can point at. What do you think of initiatives like Bret Victor's Dynamicland or Paul Gardner-Stephen's MegoPhone to reinvent tech more deeply or broadly? 02:50:16 Juan Caballero: +100 02:50:22 Gyuri Lajos: +1 Sebastian 02:50:22 Alex Langeberg: Amen! 02:50:22 Martin Dow: @Chistoph @Yar +1 to cash And maybe make a Matreon version of Patreon. Then support via that. 02:50:25 jin: I want a decentralized patreon too, I'll suggest the idea to rarible or opensea (NFT marketplaces) 02:50:34 Lewis Cowles: ML etc is more that people cannot process the volume of data access 02:50:36 Juan Caballero: fwiw a friend made a patreon for lightning 02:50:37 Kaliya Identity Woman: If you are looking for a forum to engage around open standards for digital identity we are hosting the 31st Internet Identity Workshop October 20-22 virtually. I created a code for 30% off for folks here “DWeb31” http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com 02:50:37 Rebecca Sentance: VIVE LA REVOLUTION! 02:50:39 Juan Caballero: call satreon :D 02:50:44 Margaret Warren: I LOVE the idea of a MATREON decentrailized Patreon :-) 02:50:45 Margaret Warren: lol 02:50:47 Juan Caballero: @jin 02:50:48 Liza Loop: Yes, Cory. Each of us needs to reclaim our only freedom to choose what tech we use. 02:50:51 Abhik Chowdhury: This is so true! 02:50:55 Gyuri Lajos: With Alan Kay they produced Personal computing 1000 times less code and made it tinkerable 02:51:01 Benedict Lau: >@benedict I would love to see charities and donation targets and all helpful orgs enumerated
I agree FOSS projects need to establish what is a sustainable project and raise towards these goals 02:51:05 Lewis Cowles: so they say ergo it's a magic box with your brain in it 02:51:07 Margaret Warren: or satreon 02:51:09 Margaret Warren: hahaha 02:51:11 Gyuri Lajos: Back in 2012 02:51:14 Juan Caballero: @margaret, pay the matreon or get the chancla, them's the rules 02:51:14 Rebecca Sentance: Tiny mind control rays! 02:51:15 Martin Dow: @Margaret - I amongst others jest not :-) 02:52:14 Marc-Antoine Parent: I agree... but it's complicated. Large-scale influence is still a phenomenon. 02:52:21 alice freda: +1 cory 02:52:24 Fabien Benetou: *clap clap clap* 02:52:25 Brian Behlendorf: we need open source mind control rays 02:52:26 Innocent: +1 02:52:28 James: Thanks everyone! 02:52:29 Margaret Warren: @Martin cool! 02:52:34 Marty (he/him): 👏👏👏 02:52:35 Margaret Warren: clap clap 02:52:37 Wendy Hanamura: After the panel, join us for some social time: https://gather.town/yDLHcduAtUVGITWf/dweb Password: GetDweb 02:52:40 Liam Whalen: This is not hyperbolic and is meant as an analogy. Games Workshop Tech Priests is what machine learning black boxes will turn our high tech knowledge into: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/30/psychic-awakening-cargo-bay-ceti-78/ 02:52:42 Lorenzo: thank you! 02:52:42 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: Thank you everyone - this ws amazing! 02:52:43 Cynthia Gaffney: Thank you all! 02:52:48 Benedict Lau: @Brewster we need $ to funding ongoing costs required to run reliable services 02:52:52 Matthew Hodgson: *morally relative decentralised open source mind control rays 02:53:05 talbert: Thanks everyone, this was wonderful and informative! (Clapping) 02:53:05 Mauve: Thank you! 02:53:11 Ira and Joachim (Jolocom): thaaaaank you all :) 02:53:19 Rebecca Sentance: Thank you to all the organisers and panellists! 02:53:19 Lewis Cowles: no to open source mind control or vision recognition / AI thanks all 02:53:20 Adam Willett: Thank you all very informative and interesting discussion! 02:53:24 Dominic Duffin @dominicduffin1: Unfortunately I'm going to have miss the second gather town social - I've got to go on to something else in a minute. 02:53:31 brewster@archive.org: https://gather.town/app/yDLHcduAtUVGITWf/dweb 02:53:34 Margaret Warren: @brewster let's build a decentralized version of Patreon :-) 02:53:35 Marc-Antoine Parent: interested in the issues around identity and democracy 02:53:36 Sharrianna Rice: Thank you all 02:53:36 Benedict Lau: thanks all! 02:53:40 alice freda: thanks everyone! 02:53:41 Benjamin De Kosnik: thanks ia! 02:53:42 Fabien Benetou: thanks \o/ 02:53:44 elizabeth phyle: Thank you!! 02:53:44 jin: gg 02:53:46 Ben Parsons: Thanks everyone! 02:53:46 Maria Swietlik: Thank you all 02:53:49 Dwight Wilson: thanks, really awesome!! 02:53:52 RobLach: Lovely time, all 02:53:54 William Kronholm: Thank you! 02:53:55 light: bitpatron, gitcoin :) 02:54:01 Liam Whalen: Thank you 02:54:03 light: thank you hosts and panelists! 02:54:03 Aeva Black: thank you all! 02:54:03 Wendy Hanamura: https://gather.town/yDLHcduAtUVGITWf/dweb Password: GetDweb 02:54:03 Christoph Witzany: Thanks everyone! Good night and good luck from Berlin! 02:54:22 Kitsune: Huge thanks! 02:54:24 patcon@hypha.coop: I wish there was a way to make applause sounds after..! 02:54:26 Martin Dow: Thanks all !! 02:54:41 Travis FW: https://mastodon.technology/@travisfw 02:54:44 patcon@hypha.coop: I mean, my hands, I guess. These do still work, I suppose 02:54:50 Liza Loop: We could use LinkedIn 02:55:01 Margaret Warren: same here! 02:55:20 Liza Loop: Tahnks, Wendy 02:56:04 Yar: please leave the room open for a while so i can mine the chat myself! I don't have the option of saving it either, and they won't even let me highlight the whole thing (awful interface) 02:56:12 Arezoo Moseni: thanks for all the great work you do. 02:58:16 Gilberto David Marinheiro: Tank you. every peoples.